Lost Age and whether it is an ageEdit
So going through the sources, this is what I found regarding the lost age:
- You’ll command the Spear of Adun, this ancient arkship from the lost age, who will always be above you in high orbit. With the touch of a button, you can command that arkship to destroy an entire enemy army. And you’re gonna need that fire power, ’cause the threat of the Xel’Naga is very real.
One issue here is the article doesn't capitalize "lost age," implying it's referring to just an age that's lost rather than a specific era of protoss history, whereas the manual outright refers to the Second Age as a capital era. The second problem is It Will End in Fire shows we know exactly when the Arkships were invented, during the Golden Age of Expansion and before the Discord.
It's been in the Protoss Empire article for a while now, but I only now noticed, but should we merge this with the Golden Age since It Will End in Fire gave us more clarity as to the era of the arkships than dev interviews, or leave it as is? I'm up for debate either way. --Subsourian (talk) 16:03, January 14, 2020 (UTC)
How do we know the Discord occurred after the Golden Age again? It is possible that it occurred before or during the Golden Age, since it is possible for multiple events to happen at the same time. The Protoss Empire only formed ~3000 years before present, which is about 3 protoss lifetimes; although statements elsewhere that the dark templar were isolated for generations suggest a much longer period. The backstory claims the Protoss Empire reclaimed an eighth of the galaxy, then only a few centuries later the population has declined so much that the Protoss are largely isolated to Aiur in Koprulu. For archival purposes I treat all information as true regardless of how much sense it makes. I find the lack of continuity frustrating, yes, but what are you gonna do? SunnyGator (talk) 20:23, January 14, 2020 (UTC)
- We know the Discord was after (or later on in) the Golden Age since Adun was there to christen the Spear of Adun, and Adun dies in the Discord. Motherships were put into stasis at the end of the Golden Age of Expansion, but were active as of the Spear's creation (as both the catalyst for their creation and comments are made on the invention of Mass Recall tech for them as they were created). The lifespan of the Spear may have exceeded the Discord before going into stasis, but the creation was prior to the Discord and during the Golden Age. As for the length since the Discord, it occurred in Raszagal's lifetime, so sometime around 1000 years prior to 2500, though some smaller sources get weird with that as I'm sure you aware (Zeratul serving Raszagal for "many millennia"), but even the BW manual reinforces it.
- And I'm all for archiving, my issue is more one of vocabulary, since the way I always read those "the lost age" was referring to an era of history that was lost rather than an age in itself. Whereas you can't really deny the size of the Protoss Empire as of the manual, this one I'm only iffy on for given the context it's presented in. But like I said I'm open to including it, though we'd have to include what we know from It Will End in Fire regarding the timeframe. --Subsourian (talk)
- At least until Blizzard introduces more contradictions in the future. Given that those dates are only given in the BW manual and the Christie Golden novels IIRC, I think it’s safe to say all this was retconned but until Blizzard releases an actual timeline we can’t say so. Even then, I doubt Blizzard actually have a coherent idea of what the Protoss Empire actually looked like, since just reading the backstory you can see it is riddled with basic contradictions regarding time, distance, population, etc. —SunnyGator (talk) 21:07, January 14, 2020 (UTC)
- To go back to that contradiction in the ages of Raszagal and Zeratul... A lot of our dates are based on cross-referencing different sources written by different writers over several years apart. I don't think those are official dates, given that Blizzard rarely provides clear dates and any dates are subject to retcon without notice by any writer who either accidentally or willfully introduces contradictions (e.g. the Nova novel states 6 months between Duke's defection and the fall of Tarsonis, whereas the Ghost Academy comic states a month and a half). Remind me again, does this wiki have a canon policy that decides what source takes precedence when they contradict? Right now it seems like the wiki uses whatever information was published most recently, regardless of the source.
- Anyway, the SC1 and BW manuals state that Zeratul is several centuries old and Raszagal is a millennium old, but the dialogue in BW states that both are "many millennia" old. This is a clear contradiction! Which source do we pick to take precedence?
- Golden's dark templar novels introduce further wrinkles, since she uses Raszagal's stated age in the BW manual and then claims that the Protoss Empire was founded two millennia prior to the Discord (and thus three millennia before present, circa 25XX). In SC2's dialogue, however, the dark templar are stated to have lived in isolation for many generations.
- Furthermore, in SC2 the Overmind was stated to have left Zerus after the formation of the khala (i.e. ~3000 years before present), but in SC1 it's dialogue states its own age is "countless millennia." The SC1 manual is the only source that gives a timespan for the Overmind's conquest of Zerus, which was a few centuries between its formation and leaving the planet. We have another contradiction!
- It seems pretty clear to me that the writers for the games had different ideas for dates compared to the writers of the manuals and other supplemental materials, or the writers changed their ideas later. Nothing unusual for Blizzard, if the Warcraft timeline is any indication. The key fact here is that exact dates are never mentioned in the games' dialogues, only in supplemental materials that seem to serve only as flavor rather than important lore facts. Given that the wiki's canon policy is apparently "count the most recently published factoids regardless of source," this makes it really difficult to even begin to predict Blizzard's internal logic. --SunnyGator (talk) 14:35, January 16, 2020 (UTC)